Ep. 01: In One, Television, and the Birth of Standup
In This Episode:
Television and standup have been intertwined since their conception. Which is why, when two historic television programs debuted just days apart in 1948, NBC’s Texaco Star Theater and The Ed Sullivan Show, the standup world was forever changed. This is episode 1 of a 6-part series featuring interviews with comedy icons including Judd Apatow and historian Kliph Nesteroff.
Wayne: In 1947, there were 6,000 TV sets. By 1952, 12 million. It was like suddenly a few people had it and suddenly, oh my God… everyone has it, and now it’s just part of the culture. That’s what happened in 1948 with the launch of two very important shows, but before we talk about those two shows…
Andrew: Before that, welcome to The History of Standup, a show about the evolution of standup comedy, American stand up…
Wayne: From Vaudeville…
Andrew: …to Netflix.
Andrew: I’m Andrew Steven and that’s Wayne Federman. You may know him as a standup comedian, actor, writer. He’s also a professor of standup and comedy at USC. You’ll learn a little bit more about us later. But first: television. And I know this is The History of Standup, but the story of TV and the story of comedy are intertwined. And so to fully appreciate how we got to where we are today, we have to look back.
Wayne: I want to explain this very clearly. Of course, yes, they were comedians, comics and monologist and humorous and emcees going back years and years and years, hundreds of years. But really until 1947, no one was actually called a “standup” because that term didn’t exist. They were doing what we now know of as standup, but they weren’t called standups. And the term first showed up in trade publications, like Variety and Billboard, and then it was eventually used by talent bookers and club owners as like a shorthand way to describe, like a kind of act. This person would perform alone, at the very front of the stage, required no musical accompaniment, and just stood there telling jokes. Back in the Vaudeville days they had these monologist, and they called it performing “in one.” But because a standup term was coined in late 1940s, I think that might be a good place to start.
Andrew: Okay. So from 1880 to 1920, Vaudeville was the primary source of entertainment in America, but silent films were starting to eat away at their audiences. And when sound movies were introduced in 1927, and then came network radio in 1928, and then the stock market crash of 29, it was just too much. Vaudeville hung in for a few more years, but it was basically over. And if you’re unfamiliar, Vaudeville shows were these big variety shows that people would go out to the theater and see. And they would have comedy and they would have juggling. They would have big animal acts like elephants, music and dance, and it was a place where a lot of the, what we now call standup comedians got started.
Wayne: Modern standup as we know it, which is what I consider one person in front of a stage usually with a microphone getting laughs without props or anything like that. Just straight… Just using his mind to tell jokes. And that kind of started, that style started with a guy named Frank Fay.
Wayne: He was at the pinnacle of show business at that time: Vaudeville.
Clip:We move on to the New York Winter Garden Theater where the brightest stars of Broadway are paying honor to the Shuberts in commemoration of the theater’s 25th anniversary.
Here’s Frank Fey, another present day star who appeared in this theater early in his career. Next, one of Broadway’s, youngest and best comedians, Milton Berle. “Thanks. The nearest I ever got to the Winter Garden was the Roxy, but I’ll tell you the truth… I am… at the present time at the Paradise Respite over here. It’s a marvelous respite, very beautiful. Three waiters to each table. One gives you the check, the other two revive you. But, I feel marvelous. I was just standing outside the Waldorf Astoria, that’s where I live, outside the Waldorf Astoria…
Wayne: Vaudeville started in the late 1800s, but really picked up in the early 1900s. But the pinnacle, the place that really would stamp you is like you were top of the mountain was this theater in New York called The Palace. And it’s still there, it’s still there. Comedians were very much like, kind of, the Marx brothers. Were it was a little bigger. It was like…
Judd Apatow: Who they were didn’t really make sense.
Andrew: That’s the voice of Judd Apatow. And besides writing, directing, and producing some of the biggest comedy films of all time. He’s also a huge fan of comedy.
Speaker 3: Couldn’t really place them in society. They didn’t even exist really as human beings. Harpo’s this guy who’s chasing women, but he also plays the harp and is really emotional. And Chico had some vague ethnicity, but they’re all brothers and yet… is Chico, he’s Italian maybe? But the other ones aren’t?
Wayne: Are they related?
Judd Apatow: Then Groucho, you know, he’s in face paint and this is fake mustache and eyebrows and… what is that? And he’s so smart but insane… And and I think the rebelliousness of it amused me to no end.
Wayne: But what Frank Fey did was like… I’m going to put away the baggy pants. I’m going to put away the funny nose and the hat and the big thing, and I’m going to just stand on stage wearing a nice suit and tell jokes. And to emcee at The Palace.
Andrew: As himself.
Wayne: As himself.
Andrew: If you’ve ever seen any videos of the Marx brothers, you know what they’re talking about. These big broad characters and costumes, running around, doing a lot of physical bits. Now, to be fair, the Marx Brothers did also incorporate a lot of verbal wordplay, especially Groucho. It was not just physical and by the way it was written by some of the great comedy minds of the day. But there was still a distinction between the characters they were playing and who they were as real individuals. Whereas Frank Fay was himself, and to give you an idea of that, this, this song that you’re listening to underneath me talking right now is Frank Fay, earnestly singing a love song. That’s not broad character comedy.
Wayne: And again, it’s, it’s evolved a lot since then, but that’s what inspired Bob Hope. And that’s what’s inspired… All of these comedians are like, oh, you can do this. You can be just a guy.
Andrew: This may sound simple, but honestly, it just wasn’t done in comedy before this. And it started a trend that continues to today.
Judd Apatow: I’m always fascinated by people expressing who they are directly, that, that’s…
Wayne: And you feel like that’s the secret of great standup?
Judd Apatow: I think so. It’s just, you know, for the most part it’s just a one on one, uh, expression of how you see the world. And I think as a kid I didn’t understand how the world worked and I liked that they were people who decoded it for me and said, this is what’s funny about it. This is what’s sad about it. This is what it’s bullshit about it. And I leaned on those voices, I think about it and I liked when people opened up to me, I liked the vulnerability of know this is my story. You know, I used to work with people like Tim Allen and Ritch Shydner, and you know, they were just telling you about their lives. And they were tearing down the house, which I also so enjoyed. I couldn’t believe how much they could kill.
Wayne: So that happened in the 1800s and even before then there were people that were hired to be funny at a wedding or something like that. So when we talk about modern standup, I like to point to Frank Fay because that was, he was making money doing it. He was known as this guy and he influenced Bob Hope.
Andrew: Yeah, so pre 1940s. Frank Fay was the closest thing to sort of the modern standup we see today?
Wayne: He wasn’t the closest thing, but he was the one that invented the style that created the modern standup.
Clip: Ladies and gentleman, the star of our show, Bob Hope…
Wayne: Bob Hope became way more successful than Frank Fay.
Clip: Well hear I am in my home town of Cleveland. Cleveland is all decorated for the sesquicentennial, nice way of cleaning your teeth. Yes sir, there sings everywhere saying “150 Years Old,” and I’m still trying to catch the guy who put them all under my picture. We had a wonderful plane trip here on the Constellation. The Constellation, that Buck Rodgers dream come true. We came across in the stratosphere, in fact we were so high WC Fields flew escort for us all the way to Kansas City. What a trip… Over the rockies the stewardess served lunch. I said, “Why peppermint sticks for lunch?” She said, “That celery. Your nose is bleeding…” [Source]
Wayne: There was a number of people picked up on it and soon Milton Berle and all of these guys were doing it and that… And then there was different offshoots of this guy on stage and then eventually women.
Clip: But I love this old town of Cleveland. Somehow even the wind off the lake doesn’t seem as cold as it used to be. Of course I’ve got underwear now. I’ve got a brother here in the wholesale meat business. He had trouble with shortages, but he’s getting plenty of meat now, the Cleveland Indians are selling them all their old ball players.
Andrew: So in the late 1940s we finally have someone who looks like and someone who talks like, what we would consider a standup comedian.
Wayne: I did a search of the New York Times. Just “standup,” literally put it in the term, standup with the dash without the dash.
Andrew: One word?
Wayne: One word. The three ways you can do it, and before the late 40s, there’s no mention of standup and talking to my comedy. Whether talking about Milton Berle or Bob Hope or… It just doesn’t exist. But then in the late…
Andrew: Surprisingly a lot of sit down comedians.
Wayne: Exactly. There was lounging comedians. There was a few that would just a bicycle.
Andrew: The bedridden…
Wayne: Yes, the bedridden comedian of course. So there was no standup at that time and we’re still trying to figure out how the word standup came into the lexicon. And Kliph Nesteroff, who wrote this incredible book called The Comedians, I’m holding it right now. He interviewed a guy who claims from was from the Mafia.
Kliph Nesteroff: Yeah. It’s not my story per se, it is in my book. I’ve talked to this, talked about this with Wayne before that I quote somebody in the book is telling this story because I cannot really in good conscious say that it’s true, but it’s an excellent theory. This elderly comedian named Dick Curtis gave me his take on the origin of the phrase standup comedy, and he appeared on Van Dyke show. He’s a journeyman comedian, a good comedian, a working class comic who never really broke into the big time. He told me that the origin of the phrase “standup comedy” came from the Mafia or the mob, and mob control because they not only controlled nightclubs, they also controlled the fight racket, boxing. Boxers were notoriously corrupted by mob influences, controlled by mob influences, and a boxer that stood up there and could take punishment, a boxer that the mob controlled, a boxer that didn’t fall down as soon as he was being hit, was considered a stand up fighter. And a associate of the mafia who could be trusted, who wouldn’t squeal, who wouldn’t talk too much, who wouldn’t rat people out. He was considered a standup guy. So into the lexicon of mob controlled nightclubs came this phrase, a comedian that you could rely on that you could book who might see nefarious activity and not say anything about it, he was considered a “standup comedian.” So that’s according to this comedian Dick Curtis, who was performing standup for the mob in the 1940w and 50s. That was his belief as the origin of the phrase.
They didn’t retain a comedian if they could not pull the audience’s attention, could not get them to laugh because that meant the club would lose money. You know, the more appealing the entertainment, the more liquor that was sold, the more food that was sold. So that was always an important condition. In terms of Las Vegas, a standup guy was somebody who could do their time exactly. Your’e contracted to do 45 minutes, they do 45 minutes. If you did 46 minutes, you’d be fired. And the reason was you were keeping the gamblers away from the tables an extra minute and that was considered a big loss of profit by the mob and the people that owned and managed a Las Vegas hotels. So again, that would be considered a standup guy. Somebody you could stick for their time.
Wayne: Basically standup came to mean… it was a shorthand for a booker, somebody who booked these acts. Like, what do we have? We have a singer, we have a juggler, we got a contortionist, we got a plate spinner, we got a comedian… What does he do? Does he stand up or does he need music or anything like that? Standup meant you didn’t need anything. You just stood in front and performed. Now in Vaudeville, when Frank Fay was doing it, they called this performing “in one,” which meant in front of the curtain. So maybe they could set up the elephant in the back while the standup was doing his little shtick.
Kliph Nesteroff: Well, you know, other comedy historians, or showbiz historians, kind of focus on the Catskill Mountains is the most important incubator on the post Vaudeville period and the pre television era. The Catskills are sort of like an offshoot of what was happening in Manhattan. Everybody who visited the Catskills, who patronized the Catskills, everybody who performed in the Catskills, was mostly focused in New York City. After Vaudeville fell through and Vaudeville theaters started showing movies, they would book some performers to perform onstage live before the movie. Most people were there to see the movie, but they would have a comedian, a dance team, maybe a juggling act and an orchestra on stage. And these were called presentation houses. They’re mostly former Vaudeville theaters that were turned into movie theaters that still had a brief 45 minute live stage show before the film and a comedian would always be on that bill doing anywhere from five to 15 minutes of material. And that’s where these guys learned their craft, the Jack Carters, The Henny Youngmans, The Alan Kings… all around New York City. And then on top of that there were also night clubs, but those presentation houses were really, really important for standup comedians.
Andrew: So right around this time…
Wayne: In 1947, there were 6,000 TV sets. by 1952, 12 million.
Andrew: And new TV shows were popping up and needed to put something on the air.
Kliph Nesteroff: Who did they book? They booked all the comedians that had experience and were available nearby…
Andrew: And it just so happens television shows were filming in New York, which brings us back to how we started the episode, with two TV shows that changed everything.
Wayne: Let’s talk about these two very big shows that began both in June 1948. One, the first is called The Texaco Star Theatre with Milton Berle and the other one is called The Ed Sullivan Show, at the time called Toast of the Town until 1955 when they changed it to The Ed Sullivan Show, who was the host of that.
Clip: Good evening ladies and gentleman. Tonight, live from New York, The Ed Sullivan Show…
Andrew: So how was this influential in the sort of evolution of the modern standup?
Wayne: Because this show became the show for comedians to perform on. Because every show would have at least one comedian… sometimes, I was looking at the list, sometimes three comedians in an hour show. Three different comics, Jackie Vernon, Totie Fields, and then some ventriloquist, Rickie Layne and Velvel, who was a ventriloquist…
Clip: Hello! What’s a matter? You’re shocked huh? You didn’t think I’d be this adorable in person, right? See, they needed something precious and this is it. Did you hear him say. “the star of the show”? I get goosebumps. I stand backstage every night and I wait… “Here she is, the star of the show…” You wouldn’t know, who ever dreamt I’d ever see my name on a sign with Humperdinckle Pumpernick. And to think I changed my name from Sophie Feldman… But like, why are you laughing? I want you to know something. Only two years ago, I rode by this hotel every day in the taxi cab and I would to the passengers in the back and I’d say someday, someday. But you know, I started here in Las Vegas. I don’t know if you realize that right across the street at the Stardust Hotel. I was in the Lido show. Did you know that? Yes. I was in the line. I was the last four girls from the end…
Andrew: But why did Ed Sullivan put these standups on?
Wayne: He… I think he really liked it and also I think it was easy to book. And then in between that, remember we talked about Vaudeville earlier… The rest was basically an old timey Vaudeville show except those Vaudeville acts used to do 17 minutes and they would do six or eight or 10 on the Sullivan show. So they had, you know what a plate spinner is?
Andrew: Someone who spins plates… It’s kind of in the title.
Wayne: But you do you know what that is?
Andrew: Ya, on the dowels and on the fingers…
Wayne: So they would have plate spinners, they would have animal acts, they would have jugglers and have contortionists. They’d have bits from Broadway shows that would come in and do it. This was all from New York…
Clip: Eddie Albert, Lainie Kazan, George Kirby, Charlie Manna, and many more. What I show. The Ed Sullivan Show. Tonight on CBS.
Wayne: Like if you won the World Series, you would come on The Ed Sullivan Show. It became a cultural thing that Sunday night — eventually at 8:00 PM, I believe when the show started out it was at 9:00 PM for the first season — but at 8:00 PM for like all of those years, the family could get together and watch Ed Sullivan, watch just old time variety.
Andrew: So it really brought a lot of these acts to the mainstream and to the nation and to the world.
Wayne: And suddenly you became famous and you could tour and you could play Mr Kelly’s in Chicago or you could play these clubs, the Eden Rock in Miami, or you could play in Washington DC… Especially if it said direct from The Ed Sullivan Show. This was a stamp of approval.
Andrew: And so you’re saying too that they would perform… they could now be booked at these clubs across the nation. Clubs, not In the way that we think of comedy clubs today.
Wayne: There was no such thing as a comedy club back then. These were night clubs.
Andrew: Were they being called standups then or mostly comedians?
Wayne: Starting to be called standup, but mainly just comedians, but basically, yes, it was starting to be called standup. In like if you read it in like a review in Billboard magazine or a Variety or the Hollywood Reporter might refer to somebody: “Jack Carter as a standup”
Andrew: Or maybe in promotional materials?
Wayne: I don’t know. I think it was still basically an industry insider term until the 60s.
Andrew: Okay. And so when they would perform at these nightclubs, it would maybe between musical acts or you know… before whatever…
Wayne: Or it could be just a co-headline, like a co-headlining situation or…
Andrew: So sometimes they would be the, “main attraction”
Wayne: You might be… Like there was an act called, Jimmy Durante…
Clip: And now here he is, the one and only Jimmy Durante in person
Wayne: He played piano, he’s a funny guy, had a big nose, he was in movies. So he would headline a lot of these things and then he would always have a music act with them as opposed to a comedy act. That’s just the way they booked back then again, all based on this Vaudeville, paradigm where you would just have people… they thought variety was the way to do it. And then obviously Vegas opens up in the early 50s, so now you have another venue where you could go perform. And then if you got extremely successful, you could maybe even parlay it into becoming an actor in movies or sitcoms, which is what a lot of comedians did.
Clip: …Danny Thomas as Danny Williams, Jean Hagen as Margaret Williams, with Sherry Jackson and Rusty Hamer as their children in “Make Room for Daddy.”
Andrew: This is an example of that, Danny Thomas, a nightclub comedian, played a night club entertainer in the sitcom, “Make Room for Daddy,” that started in 1953 and it ran for 11 seasons.
Andrew: I want to touch on too, just reiterating the cultural significance of “The Ed Sullivan Show” outside of the comedy spectrum. You know, you, you brought the Beatles to America… you know, a televised Elvis Presley, for the first time?
Wayne: No, not for the first time, but I know all about what happened with Elvis Presley in 1956. I’d love to talk about it. What else do you know about Sullivan?
Andrew: Um, that’s… Those are the two that I know.
Wayne: Yeah. That’s the interesting thing about Sullivan. Like he was this great presenter of Greatest Generation era entertainment and now when you look back on it, he’s basically getting known for presenting these music acts. So by 1956 — I know we’re going in opposite order, it’s cool, it’s cool — Elvis does two appearances on the Milton Berle show. Elvis Presley does this amazing — they’re still talking about it — version of “Hound Dog” on The Milton Berle Show. At the end, he stops the band and does almost what they call halftime.
Wayne: Very slow… Dancing. They have the cameras full shot of him and it’s an amazing cultural moment. Later… at the time, Presley gets huge backlash. Like, this is vulgar. This is… we shouldn’t be showing this…
Andrew: Too sensual, too soulful…
Wayne: It’s insane, he’s never done anything like that before.
Andrew: He’s already…
Wayne: He’s already been on the Dorsey show and so… but he had never done anything that overt — I think even before, since like as far as just…
Andrew: He was already pushing some buttons, but that really jumped over the line. (mixing my metaphors).
Wayne: Yes. And then, so he does it on The Milton Berle Show, which again is a… Milton Berle fading star. He’s being canceled…
And so he does this version of it, gets a lot of flack from it. So then he does The Steve Allen Show and the ratings are good. So Sullivan, who didn’t want to book Elvis because he had seen what happened on Berls and all of that, So he was like, oh, he’s getting ratings. And it was one thing about Ed Sullivan, he loved ratings and he knew that young people would tune in…
Andrew: Ya, but… but how does this tie into standup? Why is this important?
Wayne: Listen to what Elvis Presley says before he sings a song on The Ed Sullivan Show.
Clip: Wow. This is probably the greatest honor that I’ve ever had in my life. There’s not much I can say, except it makes you feel good and we want to thank you from the bottom of our heart.
Wayne: That’s how big Sullivan was and how important that he gave that stamp to it.
Andrew: And that stamp would make a career.
Andrew: Sullivan and his show is now probably best remembered for presenting these rock and music acts — like Elvis Presley and the Beatles — but almost every broadcast featured at least one standup comedy team, impressionist or ventriloquist. The Sullivan show showcased comedians of the day, like Jack Carter, Phyllis Diller, Myron Cohen, Jackie Mason, Bed Buttons, Henny Youngman, and Allen King. And it also looked back to Vaudeville and radio era performers like Jack Benny, Bob Hope, Ed Wynn, Red Skelton, George Burns, Lou Holtz, and Frank Fay. And towards the end of the series, Ed Sullivan showcase newer comedians like Bill Cosby, Joan Rivers, Woody Allen, George Carlin, Robert Klein, and Richard Pryor.
Andrew: Would you say that the evolution of standup and the evolution of television — or American television and American standup — are so intertwined, like they both needed each other for them to succeed?
Wayne: Yes. I do think so because — in way when you were doing standup before television, and again I’m ignoring radio at this point because there was some unbelievable radio comedians and I’m a nut for that era of comedy — they were really basically situational, with the exception of Bob Hope, who did a monologue who kind of invented the opening monologue to start your show. He would do that, just a bunch of jokes that he had his writers do and that continues… they do it today.
Clip: [Monologue Montage]
Wayne: So that all started in radio, so I don’t want to short shrift? Shift?
Wayne: I don’t want to shortchange radio at all, but I do believe that television was very instrumental in creating this comedy boom that happened in the 80s, that happened in the 60s with the records, that’s now happening now, this re-boom.
Andrew: And the opposite sounds true to that television needed comedians in order for that medium to evolve.
Wayne: Television was incredible for standup because with… it’s just one shot basically. Most of it’s just a bare stage, they usually don’t even cut away. They just hold the camera on the guy and he does his act. It is, in a way, even though you’re performing in front of a group when television, you’re performing for one person through that television camera…
Andrew: Into their living room.
Wayne: Into their living room.
Andrew: And like music, like pop culture, like Elvis, etcetera, If it wasn’t for Milton Berle and Ed Sullivan, if it wasn’t for television, standup would be completely different.
Wayne: It translated as well as anything ever on television.
Andrew: I think that’s something that’s unique to standup is that… even if you’re in a theater, you’re talking often about personal experiences or experiences that are personal enough and so people can relate to them. It’s why I think comedy and podcasting has such the boom that we’re in right now because it’s in your head, it’s in your ears, you listen to it as you’re falling asleep, and your most intimate moments. You know, that is something that is unique to the art of standup… is this intimacy.
Wayne: No question. And I agree with you about the podcasting. I feel like it took that one on one experience even to a different level, especially because you can drone on and on and have to worry about commercial breaks… Do I have a sponsor now? Do we have to break away.
Wayne: Here’s the crazy thing is like as a kid, even though the Sullivan show was on when I was young, I was not allowed to stay up til 8:00 PM on a Sunday night, so I really only saw a couple at Sullivan and that wasn’t really an influence from myself, but for like Billy Crystal’s generation, they would watch that show religiously and learn like, oh, that’s what a comic does. When I was starting to do comedy, and even before I was always fascinated, especially by what Milton Berle did and what these comics on “The Ed Sullivan Show” we’re doing at the time and how it changed. So anyway, that’s why I was fascinated by that show.
Andrew: So you sort of mentioned it there, and I guess if people are going to be listening to us for the next few weeks they’d like to know a little bit more about us. So you’re Wayne Federman?
Andrew: And what are your credentials?
Andrew: Or do you not have any?
Wayne: I do have some credentials.
Andrew: I mean, right behind you is a name placard that says “Dr. Federman.”
Wayne: That’s from a commercial I did… Not only have I been doing standup since the early 80s professionally, but I’m also a comedy nerd and now, believe it or not because we’re in this comedy boom, now colleges are starting to create curriculum around comedy and standup. For example, I am a comedy professor now at University of Southern California…
Wayne: That’s right. Is there anything I’m forgetting?
Andrew: I mean countless television and film roles.
Wayne: Right, right, right, right.
Andrew: Most recently Crashing with Pete Holmes. Was that your most recent?
Wayne: So I did that. I’ve done a number of acting roles as well as… my goal was always to be a great standup comedian who could also act. Like that was kind of my two tracked…
Andrew: So you’ve hit it out of the park.
Wayne: Well, I don’t know… thank you.
Andrew: You’ve accomplished all your goals.
Wayne: I… thank you. I feel like I haven’t, but I appreciate you saying that. And I guess, I don’t know if this is your credential, but I feel like from the very early age, I was a comedy nerd before there was such a term as comedy nerd.
Andrew: And this is what I think is so great is, myself…
Andrew: So there’s a huge gap between my comedy knowledge and my comedy fandom.
Andrew: And so you are helping me learn more about the history of standup, not just the listener. Anyway. So now you know a little bit more about us and this is the podcast.
Andrew: And hope you check us out next week when we talk about….
Wanye: …there’s a comedian at a Chicago who’s never worked in a nightclub. Just kinda done little radio sketches named Bob Newhart.
Clip: George Robert Newhart legally. I never bothered to change it to Bob Newhart.
Wayne: So they get Bob Newhart to go down to Texas and record. When it comes out… it sells, it’s so popular they can’t keep, they can’t print them fast enough. It’s top of the charts more than any music act, anything. Bob Newhart.
The show is also produced by Jeff Umbro and Chris Boniello of the Podglomerate. You can find more of their podcasts at thepodglomerate.com.
Special thanks to Judd Apatow and Kliph Nesteroff. They both have books out about the history of comedy, be sure to check out Sick in the Head: Conversations About Life and Comedy by Judd Apatow and The Comedians: Drunks, Thieves, Scoundrels, and the History of American Comedy by Kliph Nesteroff.
Some of the music in this episode is by Break Master Cylinder.
The History of Standup is a CastBox Original.
If you enjoyed the show, please tell a friend and leave a review. We’d really appreciate it.
Thanks so much for listening.
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